

Phil: I was wondering if there is anything we can read from
the situation in the general graduate jobs market at the moment where we are
seeing increasing differentiation in graduate jobs, you know, the traditional
graduate jobs. And the idea of growing
a graduate job, which has been around for a number of years now, and I guess
this is coming from the idea that we can't necessarily just read off from
you've done a degree and so you've have to do X job, or you've done a PhD and
so you are going to do Y job. We can't engage in these very simplistic
matching exercises. And a lot of the time students are, to an extent, creating
their career; they are developing a graduate job from a non-graduate job and
that sort of thing. I was wondering if we could, this is maybe a bit of a leap,
but I was wondering if we perhaps could equate that to the experience of
developing new knowledge via a PhD, which again is this act of creation. ‘Entrepreneurship’
in a sense; it is sort of ‘intellectual entrepreneurship’ isn't it. And whether
we can make some links between that and the notion of creating one’s own career
in the labour market and shaping the labour market that way.
Catherine: A student said to me the other day ‘it’s about
pathways, isn’t it?’ and then she said ‘I suppose I could lay my own path’ which is just, you know, the way I think that we think about things, for
her to say that.
Helen: To have a choice path as well
Catherine: Yes, but it is her decision which direction it
goes in, yes, yes
Helen: Yeah
Catherine: I think there are students who feel confident about
managing the portfolio that is their career in that way
Helen: Whereas other people do, to be honest, need the more
sort of structured environment with a pension scheme and a very clear
understanding of what their day-to-day role is going to require
Catherine: It’s interesting, isn't it, what different people
want from work
Helen: Yeah
Catherine: A sort of different psychological contract for
each of them
Helen: Yeah and where they get their validation as well,
that's a very sort of unique…
Catherine: And how much it comes from having colleagues who
tell you ‘you are doing a good job’
Helen: Yeah. And again I think…
Catherine: I think one of the great things about being in
work is that you do get lots of affirmation don't you on a sort of daily basis;
people say thank you and well done which can be quite pleasing for some.
Helen: Absolutely and I think again particularly given that
the conversation that we were having a little bit earlier about identity, I
think that is interlinked with status and the sport pf notions of status. And
having sort of invested time and the intellectual energy in the PhD process,
feeling that you need to maybe translate the perceived notions of that status into
the job market.
Phil: Just thinking
about the idea of the arts and humanities students in particular and the labour
market and how the labour market really is connected with our society – is
connected with culture – do you get mainly students wanting to explore
that with the links between how if you like our cultural economy is growing and
the fact that they’ve done an arts and humanities qualification?
Helen: I think you can yes
Catherine: It’s then about who is going to fund you? We're
coming to the ‘F word’ of careers; where is the funding coming from and is
there a project that you can join that you can either help bid for funding on,
and then use some of your grant application type skills. Or is it a project
that is already up and running that you can join? And then thinking about the
sort of fragmented nature of short-term contracts and not knowing where the
next piece of funding comes from. And again that's suiting some and not suiting
others
Helen: Of course sometimes it's seen as something of a luxury;
that is superfluous when you have got a
slightly fragile, unstable economy and so it is contingent on those factors as
well I think.
Phil: Yeah I was just thinking about my own experience of
perhaps working with art and design students and I think sometimes that taciturn
is because there aren't any clear structures; there isn't necessarily a clear
labour market to match to. I think we do perhaps have a tendency to sort of
suck our teeth and say ‘oh, it's very competitive’ you know and all this sort
of thing. But actually, you know, if you are looking at the big picture of the
cultural economy it's worth billions in the United Kingdom it is a huge part of
our economy.
Catherine: Yeah but don't you think individuals have a
difficulty sometimes seeing their place in that the billions that are in the
cultural economy and we all know the sort of structures that go into making
that and then somebody leaving that university trying to connect themselves to
that and find their way into it
Helen: And also because the reality is that they might have
to sort of enter that cultural climate at more of an entry level post than
perhaps is commensurate with all their skills and experience and they might be
quite reluctant to do that. And so you are sort of overcoming those personal
barriers as well.
Catherine: Yes. But through some understanding of that
sector and some connections and some experience of it is perfectly possible and
fantastically satisfying
Helen: It is partially sort of contingent on the individual,
isn't it, that sort of creating those accessories as well…
Catherine: We’re talking about entrepreneurship aren't we
Phil: Exactly
Helen: Yeah